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Well,this was an outstanding post except for that video [how did that get in there? :-] .

I am a member of God’s kingdom, currently on diplomatic service in the United States of America. That’s what I see described in the New Testament. Paul, in the context of seeing one’s personal history as “rubbish,” reminds the Philippians that their Roman citizenship is nothing compared to their heavenly citizenship.

I pray for this nation, as I pray for every nation, praying that there will be peace for us to spread the gospel. I do hope that God blesses the U.S.A., just as I hope he blesses North Korea, Switzerland, Iran and Honduras.

Thanks, Tamie, for sharing some great thoughts.

Great thoughts. I have shared very similar thoughts on my blog in the past. You can read my most recent thoughts here, http://gkerrigan.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/cant-hide-anymore/

Couple of excellent comments posted on Tamie’s Facebook page:

Stan – Tamie, I appreciate what you said in this piece. I do, however, wonder if one can be a “Christian patriot” and fully committed to the kingdom of God.

Nathan – I know I wasn’t actually asked the question but I couldn’t resist joining the conversation…

I guess it depends on what you mean by “Christian Patriot.” Seems to me that America (or any nation for that matter) is strengthened when its people strive to be fully committed to the Kingdom of God. It is when we move away from being committed to the … Read Morepursuit of the Kingdom of God (and His righteousness) that our Nation (or any other nation) begins to unravel. I don’t think the two thoughts (patriot and kingdom seeker) are incompatible. I would hope that being a patriot is the natural byproduct of being a Kingdom seeker!

Grace and Peace

I do agree that this kind of thing can go so far as to associate God with America. On the other hand, I thank God I am an American… without thinking a blemish on other nations. I feel sure most of them thank God that they are where they are. This is where we were raised, where our families are, where our way of life is … and I feel no guilt for being an American.

If I’m thanking God for being an American because we are powerful, mighty, and have more stuff… I do not think this honors God.

If I’m thanking God for being an American because I feel blessed to live in this land, and to have opportunities beyond measure, then I think that honors God.

I suppose we can’t know what each person is thinking, but I would not want to pick this apart to the point that we hope no one notices that we’re Americans.

I think Derek Webb says it best in his song “A King and a Kingdom”

“My first allegiance is not to a flag, a country or a man.
My first allegiance is not to democracy or blood, its to a King and a Kingdom”

Jingoism has absolutely no place in the church. God does not show favoritism, and his desire is for the whole world to know that HE alone is King. The church is to exist as a countercultural witness to the world, and to the nations, that another way of existing is possible, a way that is in almost every way the opposite of how nations operate. What government looks anything like the sermon on the mount? None of them. Governments are the product of a fallen world, and though God uses them for his purposes, that does not mean he sanctions their actions. The church should not either.

“You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Amen and amen, sister Tamie! I have long been amazed at the disconnect between, on the one hand, insisting on a cappella praise in our worship (with which I agree, btw) and, on the other hand, not batting an eye when songs are sung in praise of America in our assemblies (My Country,’Tis of Thee; America the Beautiful; etc.) rather than the Almighty. Hymnbook editors can choke on the gnat of a single word within a hymn and substitute it with a term or phrase that is more theologically agreeable to them, and then swallow the camel of nation-olatry with the inclusion of patriotic songs in the same volume.

My eyes well up with tears and my heart is filled with humble appreciation and thanksgiving at this time of year as I reflect on the blessings and freedoms that are mine because of the selfless sacrifices of others, both past and present. But, far greater is my adoration and far deeper is my devotion for my God and Savior, and far more meaningful is my citizenship in His Kingdom of every nation, tribe, and tongue. Thanks, Tamie, for reminding us of our greater allegiance.

I’m really grateful for your comments and this discussion!

Tim brings up great points (as always) and is braver and more eloquent than me. I thought of those same hymns and practices but feared the backlash I thought might come.

But let’s get that out there, now: Is it appropriate to have a themed worship with songs like the ones mentioned above?

I don’t think it’s appropriate. The church should be the one place where nationality is a non-issue. Can you imagine a first century gathering singing “Hail, Caesar” or “We Love the Roman Empire?” (No, I’m not necessarily comparing the U.S. to the Roman Empire.)

There is only one object of my worship: God. Anything else is idolatry.

I never thought of “Onward Christian Soldiers” and “Soldiers of Christ Arise” as particularly patriotic, but I understand the rest of your post as an appropriate warning. I think my son would love those militaristic songs though. He was very irritated after coming out of his Wednesday night first grade Bible class at a church we visited recently. I asked, “What’s wrong?” With evident frustration, he replied, “All we did was sing girly ballerina songs!” It might be a good thing to add a few militaristic songs once in a while for the boys.

yep, I agree.
have you read the intro to Gregory Boyd’s myth of a xn nation where he shares his experience in a “Patriotic worship assembly”?

Well, I was here before and did not see a place to comment, and here it is! Great write, Tamie. Appropriate, needed. But this is not to say that we should not be patriots of our country and wave the flag on July 4, Independence Day. I do, but not inside my church walls. That area is a bit more dedicated to God, as I see it. Not a place for country flag, in my view. This is not a condemnation, just a personal viewpoint.

Forgot to leave my church website.

I think it can be very appropriate to have a patriotic type service if we are thanking God for our freedoms and the blessings of living in our country. I do not think that obligates us to thank God for the evil to be found here (or anywhere). I’m probably old school on this issue and it interests me the great wall being erected here. I do find that God has blessed America. I pray for God to be at work within our government and I believe he is, though the big newsmakers may have our attention diverted elsewhere.

Finally, I think it inappropriate to worship America. But to say that America has no place … zero… in our worship time … betrays the manner in which we take for granted the freedom to even assemble without hindrance.

I choose to see God in and above and working within all of our lives (including our country) … rather than thinking when it comes to civic interests he operates in secular ignorance.

Paul made use of his Roman citizenship, just as he made use of his status as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6). Funny how that one rarely gets quoted!

Paul said his status as a Pharisee was left behind for the sake of knowing Christ. (Philippians 3:5-8). Later he says that we can have our minds set on earthly things or we can be citizens of heaven. (Philippians 3:19-20)

Many in the U.S. have a real problem with the temptation of putting their country on an idolatrous pedestal. We talk of “our people overseas,” referring not to missionaries or fellow Christians, but American military men. We talk about the freedoms the U.S. has given us as if they were spiritual gifts. We pray for democracy to spread around the world, even though God set up several governments… and none of them was a democracy!

The temptation to worship the stars and stripes is strong in this country. That’s why it’s extremely unwise to bring that temptation into the assembly, sort of like having a service celebrating materialism.

Grace and peace,
Tim Archer

Thanks so much for this piece Tamie! I’ve often felt alone squirming in my seat on sunday morning when patriotism is injected into worship. Of course then we moved to Canada and I haven’t had to worry about it for six years! (By the way, the Canadians never sing their anthems during church…) Now that I go to OC, however, I’m backing writhing in the pews.

Just wanted to post a couple of scriptures that may be relevant to Nathan’s and my Dad’s discussion. (I don’t know if you remember me Mr. Mellor but we talked once!)

Luke 14:26-27. If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

Luke 20:25. “Then give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

If everything is God’s than what is left to give to Caesar?

Loving all the comments. You’re really making me think. You may persuade me yet to agree with my wife.

– Bobby

So many great thoughts – thank you, everyone.

I’ll step back in just briefly to say this: I think that anything that creates a secular focus in our worship distracts us from our purpose, which is to honor God. Our worship should lift our minds and hearts beyond earthly things, not focus on them.

And when you think about how many hours we have during the week to do whatever we must or would like (flying the flag, paying our taxes, sending cards or care packages to soldiers, voting, watching political debates, supporting social causes, etc. etc. etc.) is it really too much to ask to devote the couple of hours we spend in worship solely to worship, praise, thank and petition God?

I’ve learned so much from reading these comments! Nathan, your comments were brilliant (how convenient since I agree with you, right?)

I’m an ex-soldier. I was trained in certain skills of battle and ‘warrior ethos’. It would not be possible to overstate the similarities of earthly battle, whether God-ordained as in the OT or not, and a Christian’s or the Church’s battle with Satan. Songs like Onward Christian Soldiers and the others describe it PERFECTLY in my mind. We are in a dead-lock battle with Satan for our marriages, our children, our very lives. The soldier must be disciplined, well-trained, and 100% committed to the cause. I LOVE those songs because, from my humble perspective, they describe the battle so very well.

I have a US Flag everywhere and even today at work, as we briefly discussed a patriotic theme, I described the importance of never worshiping the ’symbol.’ In the case today, that symbol we discussed was the flag and the many important things it represents. I find no conflict in talking about my country in the Lord’s assembly. We talk about lots of other things in the assembly simply out of convenience because that’s when we are all together and find it easiest to handle certain corporate issues. Such is a fine time to count our many blessings afforded by country, its standard of living, its freedoms, its purpose founded on a dedication to God, etc. The purpose of our country alone as stated in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution draw God into every aspect of what our country is SUPPOSED to be.

I view the presence of a flag in worship (we don’t have one in our church but if we did it would not bother me obviously) not as an attempt to inject ‘country into God’ but an important reminder to inject ‘God into country.’

So many of these conversations fall into the trap that to honor one thing is to immediately dishonor another. To talk about one secular thing does not mean it is the focus of our worship.

Tamie, as it has been so often stated, courage is not the absence of fear but acting in spite of it. I appreciate that you were a bit timid to write about this subject but did it anyway. I’m glad we don’t agree. I’m so thankful for the others who’ve responded with opinions contrary to mine! How else can I be sharpened if I surround myself with people who think just like me!?

Christianity Today editorial from 2001 that seems appropriate to this discussion:

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2001/november12/23.36.html

Following Jesus is not something that is easy. The verse about hating your mother and brothers, is similar to that saying “leave the dead to bury the dead”. If we believe what Christ says, it turns our world upside down. No longer do we believe that might makes right, that the way to change things is through the structure of power. We believe that Jesus defeated the principalities and powers on the Cross… not by taking the power he rightfully could have, but by proclaiming that the emperor has no clothes, that God is King, and that we must open our eyes to the reality God has set in place (repent) and surrender our agendas, the agendas of the Kingdoms of this world, to him. We lay down our lives rather than kill to protect it. We give away our wealth rather than hording it and building bigger barns, we have been freed from the oppression and poverty of searching for meaning in things that are meaningless… from trying to write our own story as if we were independent of God. We are God’s creatures, and he created us for a purpose. To be in relationship and communion with him and others. But because we decided that we knew better, the world has fallen into shambles, and the powers that were meant for good have become the slavemasters of humanity. When we realize that our nation is the kingdom of God, and that God is our only ruler, we live life according to his intentions, because that is what we were created to be. And in doing so, we proclaim to a world enslaved by its desires, by power, by violence, and by death that it is fallen and in need of salvation, and that through Christ’s life death and resurrection, the restoration of creation to God’s purposes is underway. Our lives shine like a “city on a hill” or like a light in the darkness proclaiming to the world that we don’t run things, that the road that humanity is embarked upon only leads to destruction, and that true abundant life is not only being free from certain infractions, but free to be what God created us to be.

And that means that we don’t bow down at the alter of the state. In Christ there is no Greek nor Jew, male or female, American or Iraqi. Nations are artificial boundaries that do not exist in our Kingdom. And attempting to bring those ideas into the very place where this transnational kingdom meets to proclaim the risen savior and the true King is abhorrent and inconsistant with the faith we claim.

Nathan,

We have not met and I’m sure we will sometime in the future since my daughter Rachel is attending OC.

Since we are part of a church family that is built on the restoration of the NT Church, it may be useful to take this conversation all the way back to the beginning. At what point in the history of the early church, did “Christian patriotism” become possible? Paul, though a Roman Citizen, would hardly be a patriot. Jesus did of course recruit some patriots (zealots) among his earliest disciples but it seems pretty clear that to follow Jesus meant to give up that lifestyle. One could cite the soldiers addressed by the Baptist or Cornelius, the Roman centurion, but we know little how following Jesus affected what they did next.

I do know that the earliest Christians, whether Roman Citizens or not, did not see the mission of the church to save any particular political entity or to increase their loyalty to the state, but to call all people from all nations into a living dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ.

I do know that for the first three hundred years of the church’s life, the Romans criticized their pacifism and their unwillingness to to get entangled in political regimes. As late as the early 3rd century, the church leader Hippolytus (ca. 170-236) counsels soldiers who became Christians that from that point on, they were not to kill another. Now, there is a career-stopper!

This all changed when Christianity was finally accepted (co-opted?) by Constantine and then the oppressed Christians in a few short years became the oppressor. This church-state relationship has persisted in some form from that day to now. It continues in both Canada (to a lesser degree than the US) and in the US. The assumptions of this relationship is that, of course, good Christians make good citizens. In the first century a good Christian was a threat to the good order of the state.

My concern is not that one would claim to be a “Christian patriot,” but that a Christian patriot would recognize the huge assumptions that notion absorbs. I do not assume that the US or any nation is Christian. Do not confuse what I’m saying here with recent presidential rhetoric. In the US, only 20% (when actually counted, rather than asking people if they go to church) attend church regularly. This is only one of the many signs that the “Christendom” arrangement started under Constantine is coming to an end.

Nathan, whether we agree or not on this topic is not what ties us together as brothers in Christ. However, mark my words, the notion of “Christian patriotism” is going to become more foreign every year to the young people we are now raising up. Part of the reason of this, is that the world (of church-state-ness) in which that seem to make sense is passing away.

Stan
writing from a post-Christian country

Religion News Service story from today:

New Patriot’s Bible: God Bless America indeed
800 words, with optional trim to 625
By STEVE RABEY
c. 2009 Religion News Service
(UNDATED) Americans looking to combine love of God with love of
country this July 4th can quote the new “American Patriot’s Bible,”
which says God has influenced America though godly Founding Fathers,
presidents and soldiers.
“This Bible is designed for the decent, hardworking core of America,
the ordinary man or woman who loves this nation and believes it springs
from godly roots,” says Richard G. Lee, a Southern Baptist pastor from
Georgia who served as the Bible’s general editor.
“Christians have believed all along that this nation sprung from
Judeo-Christian ethics. Now they can say, `Oh, now I know where this
uniqueness comes from in our nation’s history.”‘
More than two years in the making, “The American Patriot’s Bible” is
the latest entry in a line of niche and specialty Bibles that have been
targeted at women, men, parents, students, ethnic groups or people
struggling with depression, addiction, obesity or even breast cancer.
For mega-publisher Thomas Nelson, the new “Patriot’s Bible” joins a
catalog of bestselling audio Bibles and “BibleZines” that look and feel
like glossy fashion magazines.
“It is my hope that this title can inspire people during a very
turbulent time in our nation’s history,” says Wayne Hastings, senior
vice president of Thomas Nelson’s Bible division, which is promoting
Lee’s Bible with an “Honor An American Patriot” campaign.
In his introduction, Lee writes that “America stands without equal
as a beacon of hope and freedom in a hurting world.” The “Patriot’s
Bible,” he says, speaks to Americans who feel their conservative
theology, politics and morals are under assault.
“We are at our lowest ebb at this particular time,” he said in an
interview. “Judeo-Christian principles are being beaten down. They’re
actually under attack. This has never happened before.”
Lee is the founding pastor of the 4,000-member First Redeemer Church
in Cumming, Ga. A registered Republican who’s organizing an Independence
Day-themed “Restoring America” conference featuring conservatives David
Limbaugh and Oliver North, Lee said he’s “disappointed” when politicians
“use the word of God for the purpose of vote getting.”
His goal was to create a “non-partisan” Bible, but he quotes
Republican Ronald Reagan more times than Democrats Jimmy Carter, Bill
Clinton, Lyndon Johnson and John F. Kennedy combined.
In an interview, Lee said he doesn’t even know if Carter, a fellow
Georgian and longtime Baptist Sunday school teacher, is a Christian. As
for President Obama? “I haven’t seen any patriotism from him yet.”
Lee sprinkles his Bible with some 300 articles about “The Battle
Hymn of the Republic,” the right to keep and bear arms, the war in Iraq
and religious broadcasting.
While some have praised the “Patriot’s Bible” — former House
Speaker Newt Gingrich called it “fascinating” — others have condemned
it as something akin to theological and political heresy.
“Get thee behind me, Satan,” wrote “Crunchy Con” blogger Rod Dreher
on Beliefnet. “To the extent that this Bible’s publishers conflate
serving Christ with patriotism … they are corrupt, and corrupters.”
Evangelical author and pastor Greg Boyd’s lengthy critique, posted
on Christianity Today’s Web site, calls Lee’s Bible “idolatrous,”
saying, “There’s not a single commentary in this Bible that even
attempts to shed light on what the biblical text actually means.”
Lee says such criticisms misunderstand the purpose of the “Patriot’s
Bible,” which is already in its second printing.
“Another study Bible is not needed,” he said. “The purpose of this
Bible is to go deeper in people’s understanding of the nation in which
we live, from whence it came, and where it is going unless we return to
the Scriptures.”
(OPTIONAL TRIM FOLLOWS)
Lee isn’t alone in seeking to repackage the Bible for a particular
ideological audience. Some recent Bibles have targeted more liberal
Christians, including “The Poverty and Justice Bible,” produced by the
American Bible Society, and the eco-friendly “Green Bible” from
HarperOne.
Indeed, there’s nothing new about Christians seeking divine
confirmation for their views. Northern and Southern Christians did as
much during the Civil War. “Both read the same Bible, and pray to the
same God; and each invokes His aid against the other,” Abraham Lincoln
said in his Second Inaugural Address.
Today, both red and blue State Christians crave God’s endorsement,
said Larry Eskridge of Wheaton College’s Institute for the Study of
American Evangelicals.
“The problem for those who read `The American Patriot’s Bible’ is
that their contemporary Christian peers on the left cite the same source
to justify their view that America has much to repent for in its
economic, cultural, and military relationships to the rest of the
world,” Eskridge said.
“Maybe, just maybe, the unadorned text of the Bible has something to
say to both sides of the equation.”

While the Green Bible is probably similar to the Patriots Bible in its attempt to co-opt the biblical narrative, the poverty and justice bible absolutely does not.

If there is any major theme throughout the biblical narrative, it is that despite our fallen world, the justice and reign of God is breaking in… and that those who claim to worship God but do not stand with the poor and the oppressed have no place at the table.

The bible was put together by NT Wright, one of the preeminent NT scholars today. It is by no means a new specific study bible meant to corner another market, but a bible designed to highlight to Christians all over the world that God desires mercy, not sacrifice. That he wishes for justice to roll down like rivers. That whatever you do to the least of these, you are doing to him, and that salvation comes not after you die, but here and now and it is a radical lifestyle change where you give freely to those in need, where you live simply, where you admit your complicit nature in the oppression of others, and see the world with new eyes, seeking to transform the world not through achieving and striving for power and wealth, but by following God incarnate into a life of suffering servanthood, and of standing with the poor and the marginalized against the power structures that oppress them. That’s when the idea of “denying yourself and taking up your cross” becomes not so much a metaphor as a manifesto of discipleship.

We’re not just to be admirers of Jesus, who go on sinning so that grace may increase, but stand up to the injustice in the world. Christianity is more about who you stand with than what you stand for.

All that to say, the Patriot’s Bible is absolutely revolting. To attempt to co-opt the biblical narrative that calls for God’s people to be a different kind of community that is the opposite of the power hungry empire with the narrative of a power hungry empire… its just mind boggling.

In light of this discussion, don’t miss Richard T. Hughes’ soon-to-be released Christian America and the Kingdom of God:

See an Amazon Review at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0252032853/ref=pe_5050_12450660_snp_dp

Stan

Stan, I saw that book at Lipscomb this week and thought, “Great… yet another book I need to read.”

Actually, I’m looking forward to it. It’s just that my “To Read” list is getting so long.

Well there is definitely a lot of good thought going on here! Most of what i wanted to say is already being communicated better than I could have said it so I will just add a short reflection.

I was really intrigued by sgtboz’s militaristic view of the Christian life… in a strangely pacifistic way I completely agree! In the words of Bonhoeffer “when Christ calls a man he bids him come and die.” We’ve given our lives, 100%, to serving God. This vow I’ve taken to Christ ideally wipes away all allegiances to family, language, country, even denomination! Jesus says DENY yourself and pick up your cross… now follow me.

I do not really register “American” as part of my identity, not because I am not proud or patriotic but because it is something that divides me from the rest of my (Canadian, Chinese, Arab) Christian family and divisiveness is not compatible with my true identity as a servant of God.

There was a time before America existed and there will be a time after… in the mean time I will follow Christ.

Hogwarts School itself, on sabbatical from that castle of mystical education and hub of Quidditch competition and here with us to administer to you a mental grilling to match the one you get every time you step outdoors or into your car in this unspeakable season we call summer. ,